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Grade 5 Discussion Topic: Can There Be Right And Wrong Without God?

It’s clear to every padawan that some things are wrong.  For instance, it is wrong to steal from your parent’s wallet.  Now, this seems to have nothing to do with whether there is a God or not, and yet some religious people say without God there can be no right or wrong.  Why?  They say god is in charge, so things are right or wrong because God says so.  In other words, without God’s stamp of approval/disapproval, on whose authority, for instance, do we know that stealing is objectively wrong?

A long time ago, a thinker named Immanuel Kant explained this very well.  He said we exist in such a way that our minds unconsciously give us the rule that we morally accompany all our actions, unlike lower animals such as dogs who, with the intellect of a two year old, are not morally responsible like we are.  If the dog chews up the couch, the dog is not evil, because it doesn’t know any better.  This is also true of certain mentally challenged people. This unconscious rule we follow makes human ethical experiences and judgments possible.   A thinker after Kant named Schelling said it is our ability to be evil that is what is unique in humans among the animals.  We have evolved in such a way that we all have a circle of friends, however small, that we act in a caring way toward because we like them and this is how we would want to be treated.  This is the golden rule, which has been known and applied across place and time throughout human history, regardless of religious or secular context.

So, it’s not God saying so that makes morality possible, but rather the evolutionary combination of reason with the drive toward a circle of friends is eventually realized in the idea of universal human rights.  We are all innately benevolent to some extent because we inherently like friends and understand you treat friends with kindness and are being a better friend if you play the game your friend wants to rather than the one you want to – and you’re being a bad friend if you steal your friend’s girlfriend.

Image Source: https://www.philipchircop.com/post/131380362282/the-golden-rule-talking-about-rules-for-living

Questions:

  1. Is it possible for a God to exist and act responsibly if he is not unconsciously obeying the same moral responsibility rule humans obey?
  2. Can you make criteria to evaluate that the terrorist airplane attacks on 9’ll were evil, even though many Palestinians at the time felt they were tremendously good?

Secular Web Kids Crossword

Across
4.
Belief in living forever in a sky Disneyland
6.
The rules of thinking
8.
Believing/making predictions without evidence
10.
The dog with all the questions
11.
Thinking you can persuade god(s) to do stuff

Down

1 The love of wisdom

2 Searching for reasons/evidence

3 Magic and Monsters

5 Information on which to base belief

7 Believing someone/thing has successfully cast a magic spell

9 Not believing in the supernatural

Young Darth Harley Had Some Doubts

(*****************sing to the tune of Old MacDonald Had A Farm)

(Verse 1)

Young Darth Harley had some doubts

A-questioning he goes

And with those doubts he questioned commercials

A-questioning he goes

With a “does it work?” here

And a “will it make me happy?” there

Here a doubt, there a doubt

Everywhere an “Ad” doubt

Young Darth Harley had some doubts

A-questioning he goes

(Verse 2)

Young Darth Harley had some doubts

A-questioning he goes

And with those doubts he questioned gods

A-questioning he goes

With “never a Zeus” here

And “never a Thor” there

Here a doubt, there a doubt

Everywhere a “God” doubt

Young Darth Harley had some doubts

A-questioning he goes

CAN YOU WRITE THE NEXT VERSE IN THIS SONG?

Random Passages:

Darth Harley was snoring loudly at the back of World Religions class while Li’l Yoda took detailed notes of the class discussion:

Y: “Wake up, Harley!,” Yoda chirped, “You’re going to get in trouble!”

H: “Oops, sorry, what did I miss?”

Y: “Li’l Richard is arguing with the teacher again that Jesus never existed.”

H: “I like Li’l Richard, he’s so random! What passage are they arguing over?”

Y: Mark 4:11-12. “It’s weird:”

11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside, everything comes in parables; 12 in order that

‘they may indeed look, but not perceive,
    and may indeed listen, but not understand;
so that they may not turn again and be forgiven.’”

H: “What does Ritchie think it means?”

Y: “He says only those who were part of the Christian club knew Jesus was a mythical being who was never on earth, while maybe Mark was trying to trick the people who were not part of the club to think Jesus was a man killed on earth.”

H: “Well, I’m pretty sure it doesn’t mean that, because the club members wouldn’t be shown to be violent at Jesus’ arrest if they knew all along he was supposed to die.”

Y: So what do you think it means?

H: “It’s interesting, and really a random passage. I think it might have to do with the “guilt by association” of Jesus’s followers who were as guilty as Jesus was in the public eye. Think about the young man in Mark who was seen as guilty as the naked Adam:”

51 A certain young man was following him, wearing nothing but a linen cloth. They caught hold of him, 52 but he left the linen cloth and ran off naked. (Mark 14:51-52)

H: “But, in the tomb he was clothed in righteousness in God’s eyes because he followed Jesus who was not really a criminal but rather the holiest of holy men:”

As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man, dressed in white. (Mark 16:5)

** For an example of a scholar arguing Mark may be trying to trick outsiders (not followers) into thinking Jesus was a real person who was killed, see Dr. Richard Carrier, time 20:42 here

Darth Harley Recites a “Beauty” Poem

Harley stood nervously in front of his class and read out loud the quotation he had found:

** “In consequence, if the world is beautiful, that fact would be evidence for God’s existence.” (Swinburne, Richard, The Existence of God, OUP, 2nd Edition, 2004,)

“So,” Harley said, “for my reader response to this quote I would like to read a short poem I wrote.”

Harley took a deep breath, remembering as best he could, and recited his poem about The Fall Season:

Such a lovely time is Fall

Treats and pumpkins, masks and all.

Gorgeous colors on the trees

No doubt that God painted the leaves.

Or are the colors really masks

Secrets for someone who asks?

Such a lovely time is Fall

Playing in the leaves that fall.

Harley’s teacher thanked him, and mentioned his poem seemed to have a hidden meaning.  Harley chuckled and said:

“The only thing difficult about my poem was remembering all those lines!”

(5) Darth Harley Begins To Think About Christianity

(5) Darth Harley begins to think about Christianity:

Harley sat in his bed with his mom and talked about his day at school.

H: In Social Studies we started to learn about Christianity.  They think God raised Jesus from the dead and that he appeared to his followers.

M:  Do you think God cast a magic spell and raised Jesus from the dead?

H: I don’t know.  I think there are probably explanations that are better than supposing magic occurred.  Long ago they didn’t know what caused things to fall to the ground when dropped, but “magic” wouldn’t have been a good guess.

M: They say Jesus was missing from the tomb …

H Corpses can go missing from tombs without needing magic for an explanation.

M: They say the risen Jesus appeared to Peter, then the 12 apostles, then to 500 people a once …

H: It’s not uncommon for people to have unusual experiences when they are really hurting because of the loss of a loved one.  They may hear or see weird things, but that doesn’t mean it’s their loved one was brought back to life.

M: What about Jesus appearing to the 500 people at once …

H: It reminds me of the children predicting the miracle at Fatima, and then a huge crowd saw weird things in the sky.  I think it tells us more about how our minds plays tricks on us rather than thinking the Fatima miracle really happened.

M: They say the touched Jesus’ wounds …

H: Those were later stories that were trying to convince people Jesus really did die and come back to life. There’s no reason to think there were any early stories about people touching the resurrected Jesus.

Harley’s mom smiled: “So you’re not convinced Christianity is true?” she asked

“Not yet,” Harley replied. “Magic could have happened, but I think there are better explanations where we don’t have to use magic as an explanation to support our ideas.”

(1) CURRICULUM CONNECTIONS

  • (A) Curriculum Connections

Consider the Ontario, Canada, diversity and pluralism in education directive (2009): http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/policyfunding/equity.pdf   From the document it says:

  • Religion: By 2017, about one-fifth of our population will be
    members of diverse faith communities including Islam, Hinduism,
    Buddhism, and Judaism, in addition to a growing number of individuals without a religious affiliation (8)
  • Curriculum and Courses – Revised curriculum policy documents contain a section on antidiscrimination education that encourages teachers to recognize the diversity of students’ backgrounds, interests, and experiences, and to incorporate a variety of viewpoints and perspectives in learning activities. New courses are also being created that focus on gender studies, equity studies, and world cultures. (25)

This is important to emphasize, but what is currently lacking in many public schools are effective cross-curricular units outlining the core elements of the secular point of view that should be incrementally taught at each grade level along with the other pluralism/multicultural points of view.  Teachers lack the resources to properly teach the secular worldview. 

On this site you will find ideas and resources that are helpful in building multicultural/pluralism lesson plans. These lessons express and engage with the secular point of view, and “philosophy for kids/critical and creative thinking” generally.  So, consider some of these strategies for creative and critical student skill building.

(4) Darth Harley and His Mom

Harley sat with his mom one night and she read to him from one of her favorite books, “David Copperfield.”  The book was often too difficult for him, but he loved reading with his mom.  She read:

“I was sensible of a mist of love and beauty about Dora, but of nothing else … it was all Dora to me. The sun shone Dora, and the birds sang Dora. The south wind blew Dora, and the wild flowers in the hedges were all Doras, to a bud.  (Dickens, 2015, ch 33, Blissful).”  

His mother said to him: “You fell in Love with Wendy from the book Peter Pan because she was the first person to ever have the name Wendy and you thought she was going to fly into your room one night and take you away to Neverland.  How did the world show itself or appear to you then?

“Everything was alive and magical,” Harley said.

“Remember when you started taking allergy pills and you felt a little funny and the world seemed to have stronger colors than usual?  Now imagine how a really strong drug can change the way you feel and what you experience.”  His mom continues: “And Harley, when you have a headache or stomach ache, how does the world appear then? 

“Everything shows itself in an irritating way.  I want to go to my room and shut the world out.”

“Can you see why talking to someone as smart as Li’l Yoda about God is so fun and challenging?  Trying to suggest to people that it’s possible they are only experiencing a god-filled world, that it’s just a trick their mind is doing, is like trying to convince someone they aren’t seeing what they’re seeing!”

“Then it’s impossible,” Harley laughed.

“Not impossible, just difficult.  Certain kinds of doctors are very good at talking to confused people in such a way that they no longer believe they are being followed by strangers.  The strangers aren’t really following them, that’s just how they appear to the patient.  It’s a trick their mind is playing on them. People called “Deprogrammers” are good at getting people to stop believing things they once believed with all of their hearts.”

“Can doctors and deprogrammers use their skills to dispel religion?”

“They can and do, but many of the doctors are also believers in religion themselves.  Like I said, it’s a fun challenge.”

Harley thought for a bit and asked: “Mom, do you believe in God?”

“Most people seem to.  Many of them are far more intelligent than me, so maybe they’re right.  Let’s say for the sake of argument that I do, but am open to your questions … !  Spend time with Li’l Yoda, go back and forth with his ideas like Jedi dueling with light sabers. It’s great sport!”

Finally, his mom said as she wished him good night: “Harley, you are very special. You have been born with a tremendous special gift, a dis-Ability of not being able to remember very well. This may seem bad at first, but you will learn to use this gift, and in a world full of people lost in the details, you will be able to focus on the important information and see the forest despite the trees. The key to a wise and thoughtful life is to always sniff out when ideas don’t make sense and to question them – kind of like the main character in the picture book ‘The Emperor’s New Clothes.’ The great thinker Socrates said ‘I know that I know nothing. I am neither wise with their wisdom, nor foolish with their foolishness.’ “

“I sort of understand, Harley said – but not really.”

“I know,” his mother replied, “and I’m very proud of you because you recognize what you don’t know”